It took over 4,000 entries and almost four years, but it finally happened: my blog has finally gotten me into trouble. I’m finally a player!
Yesterday morning, as I was working at my desk, I got a phone call:
Female voice with Eastern European accent: Hello, I have some questions about your web site.
Me: Go ahead…
FV: How do you create your website?
Me: With Blogware, our weblogging software. Is there anything in particular you’d like to know?
FV: And how are comments added to the website? Do they email you, and then you add them?
Me: No, that’s handled automatically by Blogware. Every article has a link that you can click on to add a comment. You type it in, click a button, and it’s there.
FV: And if there were a comment you wanted to delete, could anyone do that?
Me: No, only the owner and people the owner sets up as administrators can do that.
At this point, it was beginning to dawn on me that the person on the other end of the line wasn’t a customer. What was going on?
FV: I am asking because I would like a comment removed. Someone left a comment that is not true.
Me: Not true? Which one?
FV: The one in the thing about movers. Someone left a comment about our company that is not true. They said we did things, but they signed a paper clearing us. If you do not remove this comment, we will send our lawyers after you.
I sighed. I needed to get a lot of work done, and dealing with non-work headaches, especially the threat of legal action, was the last thing I needed.
I decided the best thing to do for the time being would be to copy the comment, take it down and evaluate the situation when I had more time. I pointed my browser at the Blogware control panel, found the article and called up its comment-editing page.
Me: So which comment is it?
FV: The one about Quick Boys.
For the record, here’s the comment:
Re: Anyone Know any Good Toronto Movers?
by Anonymous on 2005.06.27 02:00PM EDT | IP: 70.29.128.20No good ones to recommend but two to avoid at all costs:
Moveworks: Hired them in 2001 to move between two units in the same building. They showed up 3 hours late, failed to bring wardrobe boxes, and sent two 16 year old kids with one of their girlfriends. They moved about four things into the service elevator and then took off, leaving two moving dollies behind and me to do the entire move without assistance. Thank god for friends.
Quick Boys Moving & Storage: Avoid like the plague. Hired in April to move my girlfriend into our place. They took seven hours to load a one bedroom apartment into the truck and drive about ten minutes (they were, of course, being paid hourly). Held her stuff hostage at this end until we paid for the full move. Damaged a substantial percentage of the furniture with scratches, etc. “Forgot” to unload two boxes of crystalware and took three weeks to deliver it to us. The movers were surly, unpleasant, and stank of body odour.
Good luck! A lot of the companies out there really exist to rip you off so be careful. I’ve heard good things about El Cheapo and Two Small Guys With Big Hearts but have never used either. If I ever hire movers again, I’ll just swallow my cost-saving needs and go with the big guys.
It was written by my friend Jay Goldman. I’ve known Jay for about three years and I’ve worked with him on a couple of occasions. He’s always dealt straight with me.
Me: And you say that this comment is not true?
FV: It is a lie. Let me put my boss on the line.
Gruff Male Voice with Eastern European Accent: Remove that comment. That’s all I’m going to say. (click)
Niiiiice. A real sweetheart, that one. There was a bit of an edge to the “That’s all I’m going to say” bit.
FV: So if you could remove that comment, it would be appreciated. I will check to confirm that they have been deleted.
And with that, she hung up.
I noticed that someone had recently added a new comment about Quick Boys. Here it is:
Re: Anyone Know any Good Toronto Movers?
by Anonymous on 2005.07.28 10:45AM EDT | IP: 64.229.26.252I have used Quick Boys Movnig Storage i think they were the best and they have moved couple of my friends as well and they were all
happy. I belive no one is perfect even big van line make mistakes as well.I think whats up there is not true. I highly recomend Quick Boys Moving storage.
Thank you Julian.m
In light of the phone call, the time when the comment was posted and its English-as-a-second-language wording, this comment seemed very suspicious, almost as if it were planted by a shill.
I Googled, using “Quick Boys” and “movers” as search terms. It turns out that the blog entry was the number 2 result. So that’s why they were unhappy.
I saved copies of both Quick Boys-related comments to deal with them later and then deleted them.
Five minutes later, she called back.
Female Voice: I am looking at your site and I see that the comments have not been deleted. I am going to talk to your employer.
Me: Have you reloaded the web page?
FV: Reloaded?
Me: On the toolbar of your browser, there should be a picture of a piece of paper with arrows going in circles. That’s the “refresh” button. Click it, and you’ll reload the page.
FV: Ah. I see. Good.
Me: Now wait a minute. I’m only doing this because I don’t have time to deal with you idiots right now. When I get a moment, I’m going to look into this. Now if your complaint is legitimate, I’ll gladly do as you ask, because I’m not into smearing people. But the way you’re acting, that’s just plain thuggery. This is a personal web site; my employer has nothing to do with this. The person who made the comment is voicing his opinion and he’s not the sort to lie.
FV: But he signed a contract saying he was satisfied.
Me: And if he did, there won’t be a problem. But if he wasn’t satisfied, his comment is going back up. You can’t go pushing people around like this. Do I make myself clear?
FV: I understand.
I gave Jay a ring. He was in a meeting, so I simply left a message. He called me back later that afternoon:
Jay: Hey, Joey, I hear Quick Boys is on your case.
Me: Heh. Yeah. So, what happened?
Jay: Pretty much what I wrote — my girlfriend was moving in and hired them. They arrived over an hour late and in the end took a grand total of nine hours to move a single bedroom a short distance. When they got to my place, they refused to unload the truck until she paid up and signed the contract.
They took so long that they had to run somewhere else and left a lot of her stuff on the ground floor of the building; we had to take it up ourselves. Plus, they damaged some of her furniture and held onto some her stuff until we complained. They say that she signed something that clears them of any responsibility. I asked them for a copy of this document, and after stalling, said they’d mail it to me. I never received it. It’s worthless anyway; I talked to my lawyer and he said that a contract signed under duress like that isn’t valid.
Me: Huh.
Jay: Hey, sorry to cause you all this trouble. You can take down the comments –
Me: No. I trust you, and they way they’ve treated me, I can’t say I trust these guys. Those comments are going back up. For me to take them down…
Jay: …would be pretty bad.
Me: That’s right. In fact, I’m going to post a whole damned blog entry about it.
As I mentioned before, I know Jay, and based on his actions and my dealing with him, trust him. On the other hand, my (admittedly and thankfully) brief experience with Quick Boys has been filled with subterfuge and threats. Thus far, I have no reason to trust them.
The worst thing I can do as a high-profile Toronto blogger, an employee of a company that makes blogging software and a card-carrying member of the EFF is to back down in the face of idle threats like those made by the people at Quick Boys. When someone kowtows to bullying like this, we all lose.
If any representative of Quick Boys wishes to respond to this, they can do so in the comments or give me a ring at the office. I believe they know the number.
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{ 110 comments… read them below or add one }
Glad to see you stand up to these folks. And way to represent EFF, go Joey!
Joey,
You are getting married soon and you have your whole life ahead of you. Why mess around with a bunch of Eastern European thugs like this?
When a person’s livlihood is messed with, they can get really nasty. I think the last thing you should do is expand the story. Think of you fiance, your future children, and yourself.
Expanding the story is only going to mess up their google search even more and enrage them further.
Forget all this macho stuff and be a real man.
Joey,
You are getting married soon and you have your whole life ahead of you. Why mess around with a bunch of Eastern European thugs like this?
When a person’s livlihood is messed with, they can get really nasty. I think the last thing you should do is expand the story. Think of you fiance, your future children, and yourself.
Expanding the story is only going to mess up their google search even more and enrage them further.
Forget all this macho stuff and be a real man.
Cool, I guess I’m a player too. I had a similar experience when I groused about an online code-breaking “challenge” that seemed a little fishy, and I got a series of pseudo-legal threats as a result. Considering that the would-be plaintiff obviously had no legal knowledge and would have had to solve trans-national jurisdiction issues, and that the total amount of damages they could have claimed was only about $200, I called their bluff. I think my last email to them ended with “go to hell” or something very much like it, and of course they caved…not before they attempted to sow a little disinformation in my comments section, but still. I also have the #3 Google spot for the name of an online chess site plus “problems” because the proprietors there (Russian thugs in this case) also seem more interested in blackmail than in improving their product. It seems to be an all-too-common phenomenon.
Joey and I discussed this last night and even though I am a Berkman Center hippie I tend to agree that broadcasting it isn’t the best idea, but it’s what Joey wanted, and I couldn’t really think of what law he was breaking by allowing a review of a business to be posted on his site by someone else. Good test case for various organizations should they actually find a tort or something.
I ended up not asking him not to post it because I have to practice what I preach here at work or I’d be a giant hypocrite. I know a crapload of lawyers who specialize in just this sort of thing, too.
But we did discuss it, which is the point of this comment.
I admire your courage, J. This IS pretty stupid stuff for these guys to get worked up about (and a little odd they know enough to trawl the web for what ppl might be saying about them but nothing about how to properly counter that). Then again, who sez movers have the market cornered on brains or savoir-faire.
Good move to ‘out’ the whole shituation here. I’d stay in heavily populated areas and avoid dark alleyways for while tho.
Hmm, the movers post you linked to still seems to be missing the comment. I thought you’d put it back? Or did you mean that by putting the comment in this entry, you’ve put it back on the web?
-RW
Bravo, Joey!
Most entertaining post in awhile
I really like the fact that they, “Quick Boys Movers” (let’s mention them as much as possible to get this posting also high on google
created more bad publicity by treatening you poorly. I should create a posting myself, mention them and link to this post.
*cheer*
Why am I reminded of this?
http://www.vpix.com/docs_f/rhps/trivia/atlas.c/atlas01.jpg
(Love this post Joey)
I’ve heard of Dooced, but are you going coin de Villa’d?
de Villa’d: verb, to protect one’s blog from threat of lawsuit from a Eastern European moving company
Way to stand up for free speech all that is right and good. May kittens, puppies and children rejoice, and statues be raised on your honor.
I once received a phone call on a Sunday morning asking me to (stay with me) delete a comment made on my weblog to a posting linking to a newspaper article about a Rochester-area armored car robbery that the commenters father was a suspect in. Neither my post nor the linked article mentioned the commenters father. He wasn’t menacing, and not from Eastern Europe, but I was still a little shaken by the incident.
I couldn’t delete the comment, it turns out, because I lost my login to the control page for the service I was using. He hasn’t called since, but I still avoid mentioning the robbery.
What is it about movers that they inspire such ire? I recently looked up Boris the Mover (if you have an answering machine, you know him or his consumptive partner, Yanosch) and found a gripe page with myriad stories that sounded freakishly similar to your friend Jay’s.
For hours of Schadenfreude, visit Apartment 606
bunny
Just remember, it’s not libel if it’s true.
Is it just me, or does this comment (posted twice) have a sort of “I’d hate to see anything happen to your lovely fianc�e, know what I’m sayin’” kind of tone?
Maybe some kind of distributed-free-speech-chill-thwarter could be of use here. The rest of us bloggers can run A.G.’s story, and let A.G. drop it or bowdlerize it. If Bastards, Inc. bully another one of us, we can drop/bowdlerize it too, assured that some other blogger has picked it up, and that the story’s prominence has only grown.
How do Bastards, Inc. prevent and/or stop this? By laying off of A.G., thus minimizing the damage their doing to themselves.
This is also know as the “no I’m Spartacus” tactic.
“True, Without Malice, and for the Public Benefit” is a complete defence vs. Libel in the US (and even in the UK). They have no further tortious claim after that.
Further– even if it were not true, it is up to them to demonstrate to you that their assertions (“he has signed a paper”) are correct, and you are under no obligation to act until you have reasonable grounds to believe their assertions. Mere “hearsay” by phone is not sufficient. Specifically, you were under no legal obligation to act until you had seen a (believable) copy of their “Paper”.
You had reasonable grounds to believe the Comment was True, you had no Malice towards “Quick Boys”, and there are clear grounds for the Comment being considered both Fair Comment and In The Public Benefit.
You’re safe.
cheers
Sal
hey look, guess the previous guy forgot to close his <i> tag
Does anyone know the law wrt publishing a comment not your own? I mean, if Joey or even The Toronto Star published a ‘letter’ from, say, Ernst Zundel about that holocaust business, is he liable for anything?
I’m inclined to think that legally, in this case, Joey’s in the clear b/c he had no reason to believe it was false information.
Just for the record, I met two of the “Two Small Guys with Big Hearts” company and they were really nice.
By the way, this is an awesome post…
Excellent timing on this post; I’ll be moving down to Toronto in September and was going to be searching out movers over the next few days. I think I’ll be avoiding Quick Boy movers.
As I was reading your post I couldn’t help but have Boris and Natasha’s voices in my head. I don’t think I’d want Boris and Natasha moving my stuff…
Cheers, and thanks for the heads up.
Lee
Joey did you find out the legalities yet? I’m just curious as to what the law is concerning things like that. I mean all Jay was doing was giving his opinion, his testimonial; he wasn’t intentionally going out to try and ruin a business.
Kim
Uh… why is everyone fretting about the legal? Can we not apply some common sense? There are review sites all over the internet. IMDB for movies. Amazon for other products. Computer sites were people share their experiences on, not just hardware, but services (much like a moving company provides a service). Much of it loaded with negative. The experience reader can spot the bogus entry, the exaggerated claim, the hypersensitive consumer, or the shill.
Most of these comments dump on major corporations, not Little Boris Movers and Shakers. Don’t you think, with all their millions, if there was a legal way to shut down comment sections, they would?
Good for you Joey! I’m glad you stood up for yourself. Try not to get too concerned by idol threats from these unprofessional bulldozers.
I guess business is slow at Quick Boy Movers for them to find the time to track you down at work to tell you what to do with your own personal blog.
What a crazy story?
Nice work!
Can you take a look at your logs and determine from what IP the “amended” posting was made (by Julian M.)? Sometimes reverse DNS is a lovely tool.
I wonder if they know that the police can easily track this kind of stuff, even if they posted anon. Not, you know, like I’m threatening the threateners…
hmm, maybe we should close the missing italics tag…
Re: IP
Have a look again. It’s posted right above the original Jullian-post.
I just did a Google search on “Quick Boys Moving” – your blog #1 and blogs.law.harvard.edu/thursdaymeetings/aggregator/ #2
Thanks for the great lesson in how NOT to deal with a blogger!
Jack
did you check to see if that second post has the same IP as the original pro-boys post?
-lumie
You mentioned that you were a card holding member of the EFF: are they based in the US? Does anyone know if there’s a Canadian equivalent?
David Magda
Closing the italics tag:
Any better?
They deserve to lose business over that. It’s ridiculous that they think they can get away with threatening people for stating the truth.
Hey! You made boingboing. These assholes are going to go so far down in Google rank we’ll never see them again.
Hurrah free speach! Thanks Jay.
(It would be nice if I could comment here without having to “log in.”)
Truth is not an absolute defense in Canadian defamation law. You can make true statements with the intent to defame and be found guilty of defamation. – Joe Clark
A “Real Man” has INTEGRITY, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH RUSSIAN/UKRANIAN SCUM THAT THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT ALLOWED TO ENTER YOUR COUNTRY TO DO Illegal and unethical things.
Ironically I saw this thread today
Still, even Apple and other major corporations allow embarrasing comments on their own web sites.
This is the case in most Western jurisdictions, actually, although I believe that the UK allows for Truth as an absolute defence where there is Defamation but no Publication (“Slander”).
But the key phrase is “with intent to defame”. Without this Intent, Truth can form part of a valid defence.
Sal
I too have gotten screwed by a moving company and applaud your blog and jay for bringing this to the public’s attention. Even seemingly reputable companies can scam you. National Moving Company showed up so late that I didn’t get to visit with my mother before I moved cross country, then showed up late on the other end. They claimed we owed an additional $2000 because we were “over weight”, and the truck was a different truck than we had packed into and there were different guys that showed up with our stuff than the movers that originally packed our stuff. Then, when I refused to pay, they said they would not give me my stuff and instead would take it to a storage unit where I would be charged rent until I paid up. Since my dad is a lawyer (ok, actually accountant), I had him call the company. They answered the phone the first two times and were absolutely unhelpful and refused to follow the signed contract, then started not answering the phone. I finally convinced the guys to unload the truck by literally standing in front of the truck and pitching a very public fit, after I had called the cops. I gave them my remaining deposit in cash and told them that a lawsuit would be filed the next day. The next day they had changed the company name and shut off the phone. My stuff was badly damaged: scratched, back of the couch broken, box springs broken and torn. They also “lost” my couch. I was a poor graduate student then and still haven’t been able to replace all the furniture that was damaged. Check the BBB and do your research. Screw the bullies from “Quick Boys Moving”. They are only out to get your money!
Joey, I’m sympathetic to your situation for sure, but your mention of the “Eastern European accent” was kind of irrelevant and most unfortunately sparked a whole bunch of extremely xenophobic comments on your otherwise very eclectic blog. As a regular reader, I understand you were just trying to paint the picture in vivid way and that in itself didn’t bother me, but I have to say it’s really disappointing to read what others have written here as a result.
There is a famous net.kook in Utah, Jeff V. Merkey, who is also trying to silence his critics that have high Google rankings with http://www.merkeylaw.com” rel=”nofollow”>lawsuits.
Oh, boohoo. Get over it.
Now wait a damn minute! I’m not a slavic person but I must speak in their defense.
1) I have never met any of these sketchy crime-type russians or ukranians, but it seems to me you are making a generalization. Almost every minority group has a seedy underbelly (ever been to Montreal? Everybody’s got a mafia there!)
2) The Canadian gov’t didn’t “let” them in, slavic immigrants helped build this country, and that is why the prairies are peppered with communities full of them.
3) Slavic girls are hot. Nuff said.
good job
Uh-oh, somebody said something intelligent. Quick! ridicule them!
the mafia does not appreciate your use of the word “seedy”. if this comment is not removed immediately we will be forced to take action against you. and we dont mean leagal action…